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[Bella]

Forgive my sounding like an ignorant 'murrican but I always assumed Europe (especially Western Europe) was way more progressive than the US when it comes to LGBT media representation. What gives?

[Nichi]

I asked her about it yesterday, and it seems France is a touch more conservative than I thought.

As for what CN France did with Steven Universe, it reminds me of the old English dubs of some anime I've watched in the past; for example, Sailor Moon; how Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune were no longer lovers, but cousins...that were way, way closer to each other than any cousins I've ever known. It is a bit ridiculous to change Ruby and Sapphire's relationship, but assuming all they do is change the dialog and leave the animation the same, I think the point will still come across that they are more than just friends; bringing back to the example with Sailor Moon, my sister and I both had a feeling there was something up with Uranus and Neptune when we watched for the first time, when my sister looked it up on a fansite and found out what was changed in the dub -w-;

[Pitkin]

That's really a hard question to answer, Bella. What gives?

In general, the Western European countries indeed feel more progressive than the US, but France is not exactly an LGBT utopy. The society stays rather misogynous and LGBT-phobic, even if Paris as an international capital is obviously very liberal. Typically, the regional capital here in Eastern France has only had Pride marches for three years, while the city I lived in Finland, which was around the same size, started them years before, and Finland is still a conservative country in my eyes. The discourse got much more violent on the opponent side in 2013 when the marriage equality was voted on, and unfortunately some of that hostility is still present. Also, the trans rights in France are a mess for a European nation, a remnant from the beginning of the 1990s. This country remains far from a liberal paradise, really, even if it keeps getting better for most.

I think the problem in cases like this one must be somewhere in the company hierarchy: someone (either in the publishing or translation) must've found it prone for controversies and decided to "play it safe" in order to not attract the hate from the anti-LGBT group called Manif' Pour Tous. Or, that someone is one of those opponents themselves and decided to use their authority "to protect the children". ^^;;;

[LeaflameSD]

not adding to the topic or anything, but

am i the only person who is kinda sick of seeing lgbt stuff on the internet all the time? don't take this the wrong way guys, but i feel after caitlyn jenner came out its all i ever see on facebook, twitter, 4chan, the website i go to chat with my friends etc

i understand its important to a lot of people and being comfortable with who you are is a big deal, but imo its kind of getting old now. not judging you, just keep it to yourself, fam.

[Nichi]

I suppose I sometimes feel the same; I mean, speaking as someone that is still trying to understand who they are, these are important subjects, but there are times where I do get burned out on the subject (Especially in regards to Tumblr) and just want to see something else for a change; like funny cat pictures. It doesn't mean I don't agree with them, but just that sometimes it's important to step back and breath, so it doesn't become overwhelming.

However, when I go on my main FB and see the sort of stuff people on there are posting, I just remember that, yes, the LGBT community is far from being fully accepted; there's still a long way to go, which of course means that the subject will continue to be talked about for quite some time. But, as I mentioned, it's always important to take a break to do something else for a while.

[Bella]

@Pitkin: Apologies for the generalizations! There's a common stereotype in the US that European media is much more progressive in terms of discussing/portraying sex, sexuality and the human body compared to American media where those things are still somewhat taboo (although less so recently), I guess I also found myself thinking that way. Thank you for clearing things up, though! 

On a somewhat related note, I find it interesting that CN has allowed a very strongly implied (outright stated? I'm a bit behind in watching SU) lesbian* couple when a few years back some employees got sacked for saying that Princess Bubblegum and Marceline had romantic feelings for each other (heavily implied in-show, but never outright stated). I guess a lot can change in a few years.

*As lesbian as anthropomorphic genderless space rocks can be, but you know what I mean.

i understand its important to a lot of people and being comfortable with who you are is a big deal, but imo its kind of getting old now. not judging you, just keep it to yourself, fam.

Honest and non-judgemental question here, do you feel the same way about straight people/straight relationships?

[Chocofreak13]

@leaf: seconding bells, is it because of all the PRIDE stuff being shoved in our faces? because, yes, that can get old, but if it's milder acceptance-type-stuff then i would ask the same question she did. think of it in the context of a billboard advertisement: how often do you see a man and a woman practically having sex on the ad to sell perfume, and yet there isn't a same-sex couple or trans person in sight?

@bells, pitkin: agreeing with bells that this is weird to hear given the impression of Europe as a whole here in America, but i suppose the generalizations unfortunately glaze that over. you have countries like Sweden, who have been the most LGBT-open country on the planet, then you have Russia, which i honestly expect the USSR to be a thing again in a few years. so i suppose, despite its classic reputation from the 60's, France might not be the sexually-progressive country we thought it to be. (still, though, anyone with tumblr will know the truth, so it's really a pointless move unless you're in a country where you can get sanctioned for even suggesting such a thing. :\ )

[LeaflameSD]

Honest and non-judgemental question here, do you feel the same way about straight people/straight relationships?

well
i guess
obv its not talked about as much in the media

[Bella]

Straight people/straight relationships are everywhere in the media though. The only difference is they aren't treated as interesting or special like LGBT people or LGBT relationships often are.

I will say, while it's great LGBT people are getting increasing media representation I do worry about some of the portrayals and peoples' reactions to them. Particularly when being LGBT is portrayed and/or interpreted as being hip, special or progressive, because it encourages some people to start treating it like it's a trend or ~fashion statement~ which is a really dangerous road to walk down with regards to an identity.

I don't think there's any inherent harm in enjoying yaoi or yuri or slash, making LGBT characters, liking LGBT culture, wanting to get involved in the LGBT movement as an ally, etc.

On the other hand, women wanting ~fun gay male friends~ is pretty creepy. Straight women invading gay male spaces and harassing gay men is disgusting. Assuming or perpetuating the idea that straight relationships are inherently power-imbalanced and prone to violence while gay relationships are pure, loving and free from abuse when abuse is at least as common in same-sex couples as it is in opposite-sex couples is very harmful. Straight / cis people inventing LGBT identities for themselves and then demanding access to LGBT spaces is several dozens of kinds of fucked up. (If you doubt this is a thing I invite you to research all the tumblr sexualities and gender identities that can be summarized as "I'm mostly straight and/or cis but not TOTALLY straight and/or cis, ergo I am QUEER!" as well as sexualities and gender identities so broad and divorced from traditional notions of gender and orientation that almost anyone could qualify — there are a shitload of them.) To say nothing of people who believe that sexuality and gender is a choice and people should choose to be LGBT because being LGBT is a SUPER COOL AND EXCLUSIVE CLUB!!! In general, any kind of behavior that assumes LGBT people are trendy, fascinating and progressive unlike those filthy, boring, backward cishets is fetishistic and potentially-dangerous.

Sexuality and gender are important aspects of a person's identity but they shouldn't be THE ONLY defining part of somebody's identity and they should never, ever be a metric for somebody's worth.

In this regard, I'm sometimes offput by the way LGBT people and relationships are handled by people on the internet.

[Nichi]

Bella put it best, TBH.

I suppose, as far as portrayal of LGBT characters in media I've seen, I still think one of the best was Steve Jinks, from Warehouse 13; you have a badass detective that can tell if a person is lying just by their tone of voice and body language alone. Also, he is gay, and the series just treats this as normally as if he was straight; it's never made out to be a novelty.

Meanwhile, I suppose as far as the internet goes, I often get sick of the various fan theories on [character] actually being LGBT; I mean, there's nothing wrong with fan theories in general, as everybody has a different way to view the world, but when they go the route of being like the yaoi fangirls of Gundam Wing and insisting the show's writers are "wrong" and their view is 100$ true*, that's when it goes too far. After all, while there are some that are interesting and thought provoking (I'll admit, I found the one on Danny Phantom being a transman to be interesting, even if some of the details seemed to get garbled between the several posts I've seen on it), there are others that seem to blatantly ignore or misunderstand key parts of the story just to push their theory out (Like the one I saw on Chie Satonaka being a transwoman...by basically saying the entire struggle she has with her femininity during the course of the game is because she's transitioning, and not because of her status as a tomboy or her more "masculine" interests like kung-fu movies and eating steak, which was established in-game as what she saw as "wrong" with herself; wishing she could be as feminine as Yukiko, whom she sees as being more popular)
*I used "100$ true" as a joke -w-;

[Chocofreak13]

i don't even know where to begin on the idea of LGBT in general being 'trendy'. i get the feeling that's what's adding to the pile of PRIDE in our faces these days, and representation is good, but we're ALREADY fetishizing them in the media, so i feel like there's little we can do at this point but wait for it to be washed out, much in the way of black acceptance/media portrayals in the 70's. we had to wait something like 25 years for it, but black people are (sort of?) normal in the media now. at the very least, they're not a damn spectacle, the way LGBT people are gearing up to be now. :\

this brings me to the topic, though: of those of you aware of what Modern Family is, do you think Cam and Mitchell are an okay representation of a gay couple in media, or do they seem over-the-top to the point of "quirky token gay guys"?

[Bella]

Apparently tumblristas drove a popular tumblr artist to attempt suicide through a long, targeted hate campaign.

Some of her sins in question:
-Drawing Connie (SU) with a "small" nose
-Drawing Sardonyx (SU) without an afro (Sardonyx has an afro???? ?)
-Shipping Lapis and Jasper
-Native American Fluttershy headcanon
-Drawing eastern-Asian characters with eastern-Asian features
-Drawing Native American characters with Native American features
-Cosplaying as a Homestuck troll who is "coded Asian" (aren't Homestuck trolls goddamn aliens?!)
-Drawing herself R63 (R63 is transphobia now, because Tumblr has its collective head planted deep up its anus)
-She defended a Japanese artist who drew SU characters with lighter skintones
-Drawing loli-type characters in non-sexual settings
-Having less-than-perfect anatomy drawing skills

If you want to read some of the harassment there's a whole imgur gallery of screencaps.

Tumblr social justice totally isn't toxic or promoting of bullying or anything though!!!!!

[Nichi]

Indeed. I remember seeing a post in the R63 thing; how it's "transphobic" somehow, by claiming it "appropriates" (Tumblr loves that word) the gender binary or something.

Granted, many things on Tumblr just make me want to bang my head against the wall; I've mentioned what happened to author John Green in the past, but another example was a super-long post on a controversy over a Penny Arcade comic that received negative backlash from SJWs, due to a joke about playing as an evil character in an RPG; with the character in question refusing to save an NPC that was raped nightly by a species of monster called "dickwolves". Which, for anyone that has never read Penny Arcade, their sense of humor tends to be very vulgar; why this one instance stirred up so much controversy, when they had been doing this kind of thing for over a decade, I don't know.

But, the behavior of most SJWs, and other types of people that attack others online for any little thing or just say the stupidest things possible, just remember that they would probably never say these things face-to-face; the layer of anonymity makes them more prone to act like a total fuckwad, as explained in this old Penny Arcade comic.

[Chocofreak13]

just......no.

fucking no. i want to find some of the commentors and start engaging them in hate-speech filled debates. i want to start sending them all level of troll-hate such as anon asks asking why they haven't killed themselves yet. i want to fill them with as much despair as they did this girl. i want to track them down and wring their throats.

#thatfeelwhenthedarknessengulfsyou

[LeaflameSD]

*insert shitpost about tumblr here*