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LeaflameSD · March 20, 2013, 05:06:59 PM

Their bigotry knows no bounds. Ignore the RL trolls, you are more unique than they will ever be ^z^

Bella · March 20, 2013, 05:33:08 PM

Quote from: LeaflameSD on March 20, 2013, 04:46:47 PM
Wow... I really hate how people keep saying "What's wrong with society?". What's wrong with society is that we are not making it any better :3

Unfortunately, it's a little more difficult than that. People who want progress are up against hundreds - often thousands - of years worth of prejudice, bigotry and general backwardness masquerading as tradition. And much of this tradition is said to be "holy" or "sacred", so the supporters can claim that they're taking orders from none other than God Himself, which throws a whole other set of difficulties into the mix. (For instance - What about freedom of religion? If they believe they have god on their side, how can we ever convince them to let go of less-savory aspects of their belief systems? Where do we draw the line between religion and ethnic / cultural tradition? Etc, etc.)

Sacred or not, most of these traditions exist to keep powerful men in power. And the thing about power is, once an individual or group has it, they will do literally everything they can to keep it. Nobody likes to lose power, and most very powerful people / groups will defend their power to the point of theft, assault, murder, rape, war or genocide, or through decidedly more subtle - but still incredibly harmful - means like stripping lower classes of rights or civil liberties. This is how things have operated through most of human history, and it's still operating this way today.

Using a somewhat timely example, in the most recent US presidential election, many states took measures to prevent black, latino, working-class, poor, young and elderly people from turning out to vote. Even going as far as modifying state law. This wasn't done out of pure racism (not quite, at least), classism or ageist sentiment - but the fact that all these groups constitute a large, under-privileged "lower class", and the powers that be will do everything possible to keep these lower classes from gaining "control" of the political system (by voting in politicians who [claim they] will work to better serve the interests of these groups). Powerful groups trying to hold on to their power. Same shit, different day.

So yes, ideally we would be able to just stand up and tell society to stick its bigotry and backwardness where the sun don't shine. And if enough of us got together, we'd ideally be able to rapidly effect change without difficulty or sacrifice. But we don't live in an ideal world, and there are huge roadblocks that prevent this from occurring. That isn't to say that we should give up - no way, if we stopped trying to change the world, there would be no chance for progress. But we have to realize that change will generally be slow, face painful amounts of resistance and draw crushing amounts of criticism from those wishing to keep the "Traditional" order.

NejinOniwa · March 20, 2013, 07:30:09 PM

And here we are, back at the point I was trying to make not too long ago.

Progress is invaluable. The lives of a few animals, human or not, the pain and blood and sweat and tears of said beings, paid here and there for the sake of progressing society is a total ripoff. We are paying for something invaluable, and buying it cheaper than any money ever would.

So stop whining about the small sacrifices, folks.

Chocofreak13 · March 21, 2013, 12:06:07 PM

when zombie day comes about, we'll get our change.

next topic: assisted suicide

Simonorged · March 21, 2013, 01:23:07 PM

I believe that if you assist in suicide you're partly responsible if that person succeeds.
It's to me, the same as murder.

Chocofreak13 · March 21, 2013, 06:14:47 PM

i'm all for it. we should have the right to end our lives if we really want to. it's OUR life, after all. and if someone wants to die but can't accomplish it themselves (too sick/weak/old), then why not help them? basicially all the people affected are dying anyway, why make them suffer? we put down dogs that have terminal cancer but not people, where's the logic in that?

Bella · March 21, 2013, 06:48:45 PM

Quote from: Chocofreak13 on March 21, 2013, 06:14:47 PM
i'm all for it. we should have the right to end our lives if we really want to. it's OUR life, after all. and if someone wants to die but can't accomplish it themselves (too sick/weak/old), then why not help them? basicially all the people affected are dying anyway, why make them suffer? we put down dogs that have terminal cancer but not people, where's the logic in that?

I agree with Choco here. I've never viewed suicide as a shameful or morally-wrong thing - I mean, it certainly shouldn't be glamorized or considered an "easy way out" and people who are suicidal due to psychiatric illness should receive as much intervention as possible to keep them from taking their life. But if somebody is in horrible pain or suffering poor quality of life with no chance of improvement and can't bear to live anymore, and doesn't have the physical ability to take their own life, I see nothing wrong with another person taking it for them. And suggesting the assistant is a murderer is patently bizarre - if a person commits suicide using a gun, is the firearm considered a murderer, more responsible for the death than the person who held it? Of course not - the very suggestion is nonsensical. In an assisted suicide situation, the assistant should just be considered another tool - no different from any other object a person might use to commit suicide.

Nichi · March 21, 2013, 08:27:27 PM

I third that.

On a similar note, I remember the controversy on the local news several years ago surrounding a woman on life support; the doctors were ready to pull the plug because she was too far gone to be saved, but her family refused to let them because they felt she should stay alive and continue to suffer because apparently that was the better option in their eyes. I don't remember how that saga ended, but I remember my thoughts on the matter were that they should just let her go and end her suffering.

Chocofreak13 · March 22, 2013, 09:43:20 AM

was that terri schaivo? no wait, her husband was FOR pulling the plug.

in a situation like that, i would err on the side of possibility. but usually, there is NO CHANCE they will wake up/recover, so why prolong their life? there's no life to be lived, just a sort of stasis, like preserving an organ in a jar.
however, if the doctors believe that there is the potential for recovery, i'd go that route. if the person wants to commit suicide later on because their quality of life is in the toilet, i'm not stopping them. but ideally, THEY should make the choice, not someone else.

Simonorged · March 22, 2013, 09:56:52 AM

I just don't see self inflicted death the correct way out.
Most of the issues that would "warrant" suicide are in most cases trivial, it's just that people are hurting too much to see that. It makes me sad to see people equate themselves to useless,
as every single human being on the face of the planet has value.

Suicide is something that tries to isolate you from others, you end up seeing your self as a waste of time and space, and you don't think about how it would affect other's if you were to just not exist.
It's selfish, no matter who you are someone does in fact care about you.

And if it's assisted suicide, the one who help would have to deal with the loved ones of that person.
Legally it would be seen as murder, not to mention the depression you might go through, if you're not completely desensitize to human mortality.

Chocofreak13 · March 22, 2013, 10:02:23 AM

and what if the family agrees with the "victim's" decision? what if they help? what if THEY'RE the ones to assist? and what is the "correct" way out, per se? not all suicides see themselves as "worthless", by the way. some people want to escape pain. some people have nothing left. and others, like the ones we're discussing here, have nothing left to look forward to but agony and misery. calling suicide "selfish" and the reasons "trivial" shows you know nothing about what goes through peoples' minds when they make that choice.

it's easy to judge things you've never had to deal with yourself.

Simonorged · March 22, 2013, 10:19:15 AM

Actually I have dealt with it myself. I was too chicken to go though with it. What i realized after was that the reasons were trivial, life goes on, and it does get better.

And what I've saw from my own experience was i wanted to escape from the pain, and blot out everyone else. I conveniently forgot about all the people who were trying to help me.

The way I see it your not dead until your dead, any sooner is too soon.
As long as there is some one who cares, life is still worth living, to me anyway.

It might be different for others but for what articles I've read and the thing I've seen, the theme of which is quite common.

Spoiler: Show

Chocofreak13 · March 23, 2013, 05:22:32 PM

by pain i meant physical, not emotional or mental. as in a war vet who has such horrible phantom limb pain that he doesn't want to continue with that crap quality of life.
or the terminal cancer patient who is in excruciating pain due to the cancer eating away at her spine, or the extensive radiation treatments.

still, while the reasons may be trivial to you, they might not be to someone else.

i think the views on this one might also depend on your views on what happens after we die. i believe we reincarnate, so we are simply leaving this life for the next. and if it is our time to go, it is our time to go, as is destiny and fate. there'll be another chance next time.

Bella · March 23, 2013, 07:56:30 PM

Quote from: Chocofreak13 on March 22, 2013, 10:02:23 AM
and what if the family agrees with the "victim's" decision? what if they help? what if THEY'RE the ones to assist? and what is the "correct" way out, per se? not all suicides see themselves as "worthless", by the way. some people want to escape pain. some people have nothing left. and others, like the ones we're discussing here, have nothing left to look forward to but agony and misery. calling suicide "selfish" and the reasons "trivial" shows you know nothing about what goes through peoples' minds when they make that choice.

it's easy to judge things you've never had to deal with yourself.

This may be a bit tangential, but speaking as somebody who's lost a mother, aunt, uncle and grandmother to slow-progressing, but otherwise hideous illnesses that entailed much suffering (cancer, in the case of my mom, aunt and uncle, and Alzheimer's disease in the case of my grandma) I can honestly say that I felt relief more than anything else when they passed away. Actually, I was a little young to have complex emotions when my uncle passed, but in my very young mind I was happy that he was no longer sick and in heaven / whatever my conception of the afterlife was at that age. My aunt and grandmother were almost entirely gone, mentally-speaking, before their passing, so I'd been mourning them for awhile before their actual physical deaths.

My mother was a different case. I was much closer to her that the other family members I mentioned, and she was almost entirely cognizant until her passing despite having suffered a stroke caused by the medication she was on. But she'd been ill for about 1/4th of my life at that point, and being with a loved one who is in very bad shape for so long (at least viewed from my point-of-view) gave me a different perspective on her passing. I was anguished, of course, but I can't say it was more devastating than seeing her ill. But I was mostly just glad that she was finally at peace.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, having a loved one die isn't always as bad as seeing them suffer. Unfortunately, some situations won't get better - particularly when you're dealing with terrible diseases that have poor survival rates / outcomes - and I'm not sure I would have understood at the time if any of them had chosen to end their own lives, but looking back in hindsight I certainly would.

alfonso_rd_30 · March 23, 2013, 08:07:14 PM

exactly... I mean, one can die of whatever disease he or she wants, yet if one's suffering physically, the way let's say, a terminal cancer diagnosed person, it will chip away both the mental health and desire to live, then one should be human, and let the poor soul go to it's conception of afterlife, prolonging life is to be done if the life quality is good enough for the person to live in peace... anything else is just torturing the poor guy/girl...