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[Cockleshell]

snippity snip
i'd like to know his take on what he considers 'appropriation'; basically, am i (as a white chick) appropriating another culture by wearing national costume? i'm not talking like the idiots that put on some face paint and a $2 polyester kimono knockoff and call themselves a 'geisha', i'm talking like if i source or make something like a Yukata (Japan), Cheongsam (1930's Shanghai), Ao Dai (Vietnam), Sari (India), or Hanbok (Korea), and just wear it out and about, am i in the wrong?
snippity snip

i asked him about this, he says that yes, in his opinion as a pure south korean that wearing "normal dress" like this is cultural appropriation. You as a white girl were not complicit in the thousands of years of tradition and design that resulted in these outfits, and that you just wearing them around as normal wear is using them as a costume for your own enjoyment. He then got pretty upset about it and I cut off the topic

[Bella]

I'd also like to point out members of a race or culture aren't monolithic and have varying opinions on these matters.

For instance, I've seen Desi people who are 100% against non-Desi people wearing things like saris and bindis, and others who say they like seeing people of other races and cultures respectfully partake in theirs.

There are certain garments that are universally off-limits according to specific groups  (such as various Native American tribes' headdresses, owing their spiritual and honorary significance), but most "common" clothing is subject to debate and personal opinions.

[Chocofreak13]

@cocks: wow, i never want to meet your boyfriend then. who the fuck ever said i'd be wearing it as a costume 'for my own enjoyment'? isn't that what fucking clothes are for, we pick out certain ones because they appeal to us---and YES, we 'enjoy' them?

seconding bells here, PLENTY of people from those cultures enjoy seeing cultural exchange. i read an article once where an Indian woman said she (and her family/friends/etc) loved seeing people from other culture dress in Sari, since they're not a cultural thing there--it's literally just a dress. that's why people from all over that region (regardless of faith) wear them. i can respect not wanting people to wear things they have no business wearing (such as geisha makeup if you're not a geisha, or a bindi if you're not a hindu), but a Yukata is fucking summer clothes. Ao Dai are mostly worn as school uniforms in Vietnam nowadays, and beauty contests in certain areas of this country (notably florida and Long Beach, CA) are held in which the participants wear Ao Dai.

if he sees this, fuck you, i know how to wrap a Yukata properly you asshole. i've done the damn research, and even if i don't know every goddamn musubi there is to know, i still know how to do the butterfly bow, which is more than some NATIVE JAPANESE know how to do. you will not shame me for enjoying a foriegn culture with respect. keep talking and i'll forbid you from ever enjoying Lindt Chocolate, Skiing, or Fondue again, if you ever have. >>;


#topics-Kari-is-angry-passionate-about

[Cockleshell]

∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿

seems like ruffled feathers all around

[NejinOniwa]

Cultural appropriation is a silly concept. Sadly the hardcore lunatics at the head of it aren't there to protect anyone's culture, just their own cult.

[Chocofreak13]

*hisses*

[Bella]

I think cultural appropriation is real and is bad, but I think it exists in narrower terms than the average tumblrite assumes. To wit, I don't think wearing garments from another culture, eating or making cuisine from another culture, or buying or owning items from another culture is ever /automatically/ appropriative, as long as they don't have some kind of honorary or ceremonial significance in the culture. (Bindis, as I mentioned before, are kind of an odd case since they have religious and cultural significance but have evolved to become a secularized fashion accessory by some - ergo the difficulty in determining whether wearing them is appropriative or not.) There's also the matter of whether or not it's an item offered by people in a culture for others to own or use (which ties into the "does it have ceremonial significance?" thing).

[Chocofreak13]

my views on appropriation:

"can the general public of this country use it?" (yes)
"does it take some kind of specialized training to use it?" (no)
"is it restricted to a certain age group (culturally) because it has to be 'earned'?" (no)

then using the item is fine for any culture.


if he wants to make a case for appropriation on the basis that he's Korean he'd BETTER be fucking wearing a Han Bok, eating Kimchi, and speaking fluent Korean, because if he's doing ANYTHING western, then he's appropriating us.

[NejinOniwa]

Naturally, there's a case to make against people using inappropriate gear without fulfilling adequate requirements for it. Thing is, that's not by any means unique to cultural things, or any specific culture. Dressing up as a police is illegal in several instances most everywhere, same with military. You could probably make a case for certain religious garb or the like, as well. The main point is, context matters a whole fucking lot. If you're at a convention where just about everyone is dressed up as something weird, nobody is going to look twice at you - or mistake you for the real deal - if you come in full battle gear; or dressed up as the pope, for that matter. Likewise if you're at a halloween party or some other festivity where dressing up is expected or leastwise fully normal.

On the other hand, if you're doing the same out on the street, when going about your day-to-day business, and otherwise in more serious walks of life, then there's a case to be made. Going to a hospital wearing a doctor's coat is not only bad taste, but dangerous and possibly quite illegal - and for good reason.

I'm wholly sick and tired of the whole "I'M OFFENDED AT THIS AND THAT" circus, but that doesn't mean every single part of those complaints are wrong; just that so much other random shit has been slung in with it that the term means jack shit anymore.

[Chocofreak13]

yeah, but the clothes mentioned in question don't need any special qualifications to wear them. i mean, with Kimono, there may be certain levels of formality to be observed, but this is more social faux pas than actual cultural 'rules' and i wouldn't be surprised if some people break them without batting an eye, mostly because they just enjoy the garment and want to wear it more (i don't think it's 'forbidden' per se to wear a Furisode out and about, but you'll look quite silly and it'll be quite impractical. on the other hand, there are reports of some young women wearing them to formalish parties regardless of context).

like i said, unless you need to 'earn' the right to wear it (either through training or age), then there should be no reason NOT to wear it if you want to. hardly anyone in Japan wears Kimono as everyday wear anymore, but i'm part of a group on FB that has members who wear them as everyday wear. (one lady even managed to completely stuff a full Kimono ensemble into a pair of motorcycle pants and a windbreaker so she could go to the store when it was raining.)

[NejinOniwa]

61% NO in Greek referendum to further savings and tax increases to meet the demands of the EMU. Grexit is all but confirmed.
Well, that was to be expected. The banksters didn't have nearly enough time to push for a Yes vote through media, and the greek people are pretty fed up with this shit.

[Chocofreak13]

sooo....the greek government fucked over the entire country and public revolt is on the way.


got it, i'll stock up on all the greek yogurt and feta now (but actually i won't).

[NejinOniwa]

The fuckup was a fact several years ago, and the current government hasn't exactly done anything to make it worse. What they HAVE done now is decline tying themselves up in bondage to the EU any further, and deciding to try their luck on their own (since the current system has done jack shit once they were in the downward spiral).
And in effect, the referendum _was_ the public revolt. PM Tspiras was wise enough to know where the voters would lie, but instead of making that decision himself (and thus being liable to take all the blame and/or seeming corrupt or stupid) he said "I cannot agree to this, only the people can make this choice" and gave the authority over to them - while encouraging them to vote No, of course.

So yes, there's a public revolt on the way, but it's the Greeks against their EU overlords rather than the Greeks against the Greek state. Furthermore, once the fallout from this incident becomes clear, we may well see a rapid chain reaction throughout the rest of the EMU and potentially the EU itself, now that the Euro project has been proven against all doubt to be a failure.
tl;dr - we're literally sitting on a train going downhill with no brakes, next stop Happening Central

[Chocofreak13]

Tspiras sounds like a bro. as for the EU, i always had an inkling something like this might happen; the country network that was built was meant to be a strength, but also has its weaknesses. :\

[Bella]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-chinese-restaurant-20150404-story.html

http://chicago.eater.com/2015/6/8/8746195/boystown-chinese-restaurants-slur-shutter

I was gonna write my own thoughts here, but I found a post on Tumblr summing up the situation better than I can:

A man named Larry Lee, 3/4ths Chinese, owned a restaurant called Chop Chop Chinaman. It's been in his family for a while.

A woman named Lucy Harrell, who is not Chinese, was walking past his restaurant and decided the name was offensive. So she vandalized the window, writing on the vinyl covering in lipstick "fuck this hate crime, it's 2015″.

The covering was ruined, cost 479$ to fix, and she bragged about it on social media.

She got arrested, and SJWs immediately attacked the restaurants Yelp and Facebook page with accusations of racism, leading to a plummet in customers.

The restaurant, this mans family legacy and income source, is now closed because they can't afford to run it unless they can get an investor.

Lucy feels no remorse. She got a 200$ fine and a months supervision, basically "don't do it again"...and says if given the chance, she'd do it again.

So there you go. Social Justice is ruining a mans family business because you think the name is a slur against the people who fucking own it.