Gender

[IanDanKilmaster]

Well, it is tough trying to recognize "third genders" when most people around you are stuck in the gender binary... it's like living in the US and trying to use the Metric system. You have your way of measuring things (and yes, it probably makes more sense), but the people around you have a different way-- who's right and who's wrong? (Bad metaphor much?) The only thing I can say to that is it's all a matter of perspective, like a lot of human experience (that's a rant for another time, though).

Thanks for bringing up the biological angle too... humans are a lot more biologically-driven than we care to admit (and probably carrying more evolutionary baggage, psychologically-speaking, than we realize), but yes, I should stop there before I launch into THAT topic. ^^;

But yes, sex, gender, emotions and sexuality are all very complex topics-- and all very distinct, but inextricably linked at the same time. It's fascinating stuff...

Fascinating indeed...

So I thought this kind of discussion warranted its own thread, I don't know if interest in it will last, but I think there should be a safe place to discuss gender issues instead of just a place where you discuss specifically your gender.

I think your metaphor works in a bit of a shallow way, Bella-chan.  I don't mean that in a pejorative way, either.  That is to say, I believe it works in breaking things down so people foreign to the concept understand.  Anyway, I can't remember all I was going to say because I've been distracted, but please continue on if you wish ^^b.

[Chocofreak13]

i know a few drag queens, plenty of bisexuals, and a transgender or two. i also know straight people, a few gay/lesbian people, and even a few asexuals. all of whom (or at least most of whom) are lovely, nice people. i myself am bisexual, have the mindset of a guy for the most part, but am physically female.

i like being this way. i'm a tough bitch and i love it. xD

[Sora]

I have read waaaaaaaaaay too much TG literature to keep genders that distinct, really.

[NejinOniwa]

I've personally tried going into life with a view on things that genders don't matter - the constant reaffirmation of the stereotypes that apply to them doesn't make that part easy, though. As for now I generally don't classify people for their selves unless they make an impression, or I have to spend time with them. It seems to work - after all, stereotypes ARE the generally correct human subtypes.

[Chocofreak13]

i hate stereotypes. people who stereotype the "freaks" end up missing out on some of the richest experiences of life.

[NejinOniwa]

What about the normal people, then? I mean, they're the ones who usually DO fit into their stereotype pretty well.

[zjhentohlauedy]

stereotypes are useful tho D:

now the problem comes when it prevents you from keeping your mind open

[IanDanKilmaster]

I have read waaaaaaaaaay too much TG literature to keep genders that distinct, really.

It's not that easy when you're raised in a "binary gender" culture, as Bella put it.  To adapt Bella's metaphor a little more, think about it like learning a foreign language.  To learn this language, you get all the best books in all the different learning capacities - beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.  You even hire someone to teach you the language.  You think you've learned all you can about the language, but there's only one problem, you live somewhere where all the people speak your native tongue.  You see, you can't truly be fluent in a language until you are in a situation where you have to use it to understand things.  True language can only be acquired through this understanding.  I happen to think this applies to foreign concepts of thinking as well.

If you live in a country that is bilingual, please consider that I'm referring to a language that is not spoken in your country, the metaphor should still function.

To refer broadly to the discussion at hand, I do not think labels (I guess the term stereotype is synonymous in this sense) are necessarily in themselves bad.  It is the meaning we attach to these labels that is the problem.  You see, we are human, we work in labels... everything has a label.  We even try to do this with ideas, feelings, and concepts - despite their innate abstractness.  So we label an idea we have, and then we make that label our identity.  It comes to define not only who we are, but what we do and who we identify with.

[Sora]

Except that you can use your imagination to attempt to bridge the gap. We're all human, when all is said and done.

[IanDanKilmaster]

Except that you can use your imagination to attempt to bridge the gap. We're all human, when all is said and done.

The problem is, imagination doesn't facilitate understanding, it might give you a sense of understanding, but that's a very shallow understanding.  I know we're all human, what's that supposed to mean?

[Chocofreak13]

it also hinders the concept that most humans seem to lack an imagination, except in terms of things like racism and discrimination.


"oh, they're dark-skinned! they're going to hurt us!!"

goddamn white america. >:[ (i'm racist against my own race. the only time i feel comfortable saying "white power" is when i'm talking about rice.)

[Sora]

I know we're all human, what's that supposed to mean?

All humans share emotions, desires, needs and wants. All it takes to understand each other is patience, common sense, and acceptance.
All of which have been in short supply for the entirety of human history.

[zjhentohlauedy]

To refer broadly to the discussion at hand, I do not think labels (I guess the term stereotype is synonymous in this sense) are necessarily in themselves bad.  It is the meaning we attach to these labels that is the problem.  You see, we are human, we work in labels... everything has a label.  We even try to do this with ideas, feelings, and concepts - despite their innate abstractness.  So we label an idea we have, and then we make that label our identity.  It comes to define not only who we are, but what we do and who we identify with.

yessss XD

labeling people by what you see is pretty effective you know D:

i mean if you're gonna be talking to a girl, you probably won't start with "yo dude, seen the game last night?"

i mean you do have to have to kinda give the person some sort of temporary labels when you first meet them. and probably just go "Oh! my bad" when they didn't fit your expectation.

[IanDanKilmaster]

All of which have been in short supply for the entirety of human history.

Indeed.  Here is where I point out that I'm only saying those of us like Bella and myself are just going to have a hard time thinking outside the "gender binary" despite our open-mindedness.  We read about these places that are different, that work in different terms and we believe it to be true, but we can't escape that the world (not the literal world, but "society") we work in is limited to a binary and we're trained to think in that binary.  None of this keeps us from trying to understand people who are outside of our "system", it just presents "communication errors".

So we label an idea we have, and then we make that label our identity. It comes to define not only who we are, but what we do and who we identify with.

Why do I feel the need to make philosophic posts when I'm so sleepy? -_-;

Anyhow, I didn't properly elaborate the above statement (the one quoted).  What I meant to say was, we should not make a label our identity.  If we attach too much of ourselves to a label, we over-validate it and cause it to have too much authority.  It just gets in the way of personal relationships and fulfillment.

[Sora]

To refer broadly to the discussion at hand, I do not think labels (I guess the term stereotype is synonymous in this sense) are necessarily in themselves bad.  It is the meaning we attach to these labels that is the problem.  You see, we are human, we work in labels... everything has a label.  We even try to do this with ideas, feelings, and concepts - despite their innate abstractness.  So we label an idea we have, and then we make that label our identity.  It comes to define not only who we are, but what we do and who we identify with.

I wrote no such thing.